Guess the Score Game

Anyway... I have my cues for the next game. I only need to extract clips which I hope to do tonight. I'll mail them to Bregt after Michael's game ends.

No pissy moods? Where's the fun in that!

*Edited

Got a zarkin' problem with that, froop?
Oh, and incidentally: the track titles STAY.
Martijn has spoken.

Goddamn, I wish I had more time to spend on this game. There's NOT enough hours in a day. I'm gonna have to sit this one out.

I plan to play the games that don't include track titles, so do as you please!

I think the correlation between victory and hosting has been breaking down for a while, so don't despair there. Don't forget, this is the first time I've hosted, and I didn't even win the last game! (And unless he pulls a fast three points out of somewhere, BhelPuri won't win this one either.)

Final scores:

- Plindboe - 22 points
- BhelPuri - 20 points
- Bregt - 15 points
- Demetris - 12 points
- Falkirkbairn - 11 points
- Thor - 11 points
- Tommy Boy - 10 points
- Reza - 9 points
- AntiNeutrino - 8 points
- Tommy Boy - 7 points
- BobDH - 6 points
- Bregje - 4 points (and the award for most persistent contestant!)

And time for some ANSWERS!


1. Shigeru Umebayashi (2) - IN THE MOOD FOR LOVE or YUMEJI (2), 'Yumeji's Theme' (2)
Clip 1

I was very surprised at how unfamiliar this theme was. In film buff circles, it's rare to find someone who hasn't seen IN THE MOOD FOR LOVE, and so this unintentionally became one of the harder ones on the list.

How would you recognise this as a piece by Shigeru Umebayashi? He has a way of using European forms in a way that probably comes across as a bit 'pompous', for want of a better word. The 3/4 rhythm is strongly stressed, as both here and in his 2046 themes, with a fairly simple melody laid on top of the rhythm. The violin solo feels vaguely Oriental in its intervals, though not particularly in the melody. There's not a lot of nuance, but it's attractive, emotional music.

2. Hans Zimmer (6) - SPANGLISH (5), 'Spanglish' (3)
Clip 2

This being one of the more popular scores in the list, I figured a lot of people would get this. That being said, this was one of the unnecessarily short clips that I really should have allowed to be a bit longer.

How would you recognise the Zimmer here? Not sure really, as it's in the other parts of the score that the music betrays Zimmer's hand. The use of a guitar solo is not uncommon with Zimmer, but the string quartet (or is it an octet?) as an alternative to a full string ensemble is an unexpected choice from a fairly predictable composer. The string quartet counterpoint recalls 'Stone in My Heart' from THIN RED LINE, but I doubt anyone who guessed it correctly did so because of that factor.

3. Alexandre Desplat (4) - LUST, CAUTION (4), 'The Empty Bed' (2)
Clip 3

Many people correctly picked this as the 'Dinner Waltz' theme from this score, but had trouble locating this string quartet variation on the album.

How would you pick this as a Desplat work? Ok, a couple of things. Firstly, it has a modern sound, and it's a waltz - he does write a lot of them! (Admittedly, that's still stabbing in the dark.) Secondly, it has such a melodic bridge (0:16-end) - I find the bridging phrase back to the A-melody of a Desplat waltz (here 0:01-0:15) tends to be as interesting as the A-melody. Thirdly, there's something quite austere about the string ensemble used to perform this section. It's not too lean a sound - like a quartet or a octet. But it doesn't have that lush full ensemble sound that you would find say in clip 15. That dry - slightly emotionally distanced feel - is a Desplat hallmark for dramas. He often writes music for characters that hold their feelings at bay, and the music as a result has the same feel.

4. Bernard Herrmann (2) - OBSESSION (2), 'Airport' (0)
Clip 4

We had a couple of Alfred Newman guesses here, probably because chorus and organ take us close to the religious sound, and people probably assumed The Robe, or Bernadette or Greatest Story Ever Told would use this sound. Amusingly, we had a John Barry guess on this one. I think Herrmann would have popped a blood vessel if he'd heard the comparison. I accepted either 'Airport' or 'The Plane / Court and La Salles Struggle / Airport' as an answer for the track.

How would you pick this as a Herrmann work? Well, firstly sound quality is a bit aged, indicating an older work - not post-70s. (But not too bad - we're not looking at a pre-50s score, I think). Secondly, it's a very dark, romantic waltz. Dark romance is Herrmann's niche for that time period. Thirdly, the orchestration is quite unique - chorus, organ, trombones dominating the brass... normally a composer would crack out the strings for a waltz like this, but Herrmann gets that giddy, uncontrolled feeling by having the trombones and chorus fight for the lead. While the use of organ and chorus is not an especially revealing hint, it's certainly unconventional, and Herrmann was known for his tendency to pick orchestrations unique to each project. The light percussion (triangle?) is another hint of Herrmann - he likes those high-end details. As to how you pick the cue - generally, a cue with a final timpani run like that can only come at the end of the score. And the final scene of DePalma's film is the 'Airport' scene.

5. Accepted: Stuart, Paxton, Wilkinson or Daniel Lanois (0) - ALL THE PRETTY HORSES (0), 'Waltz for Hope' (0)
Clip 5

Many people were clearly tearing their hair out on this one. It was familiar, but not familiar enough! This score was all the rage a few years ago, and I was banking on that recognisability factor, but I guess it has since faded from living memory if the score here is anything to go by.

I don't really know how you'd pick it as a Lanois effort, as I haven't heard any of his other scores. There's nothing in the writing that specifically rules out a classically-trained composer over a guitar-based artist that I can discern. Incidentally, this is one of only two tracks (and the only score track) that survives of Daniel Lanois's rejected score. The rest of the tracks are by Marty Stuart, Kristin Wilkinson and Larry Paxton.

6. Jerry Goldsmith (4) - PAPILLON (4), 'Catching Butterflies' (3)
Clip 6

The appearance of Papillon's heartbreaking theme in this track was probably the giveaway for those who guessed it. The waltz meter is there subtly in the harp, but it gets a bit suppressed by the mp3 compression, so perhaps a few of you wondered where the waltz was here.

How would you guess this as a Jerry Goldsmith score? If you're only familiar with the modern Goldsmith scores, you wouldn't have seen the composer's hand here, I would think. It's a rare time when he wrote consciously with nods to both colloquial and classical French music (colloquial being the accordion, the classical pieces being things like Debussy and Ravel). Goldsmith's music of the 70s was more richly orchestrated to my ears, with a more subtle attention to detail. Film music ultimately needed to be a bit more anonymous than that though, so you ceased to get flourishes like the flute idea at the end of this soundclip. The lyrical music from PAPILLON reminds me most of his gentle drama scores like ISLANDS IN THE STREAM (again, interesting flute details there) and A PATCH OF BLUE (where you get more celeste usage, like PAPILLON).

7. Murray Gold (0) - VANITY FAIR (0), 'Waltzing for Beginners' (0)
Clip 7

No-one got this. No surprises - this was one of three that I didn't think ANYONE would get, since very few would have it. Gold's score is a really good one - packed with waltzes (most more listenable than this one) and saxophones! As one contestant said: 'Yeah'.

How would you pick this as a work of Murray Gold? I haven't heard anything else by Murray Gold, so I don't know whether this is typical or not! Certainly no Dr Who episode sounded like this!

8. Debbie Wiseman (5) - ARSENE LUPIN (5), 'Secret Passage' (3)
Clip 8

Quite a few guessed the opening score track on the album, but when that answer was rejected, quickly found out that the only other similar arrangement was the final cue.

How would you guess this as a Debbie Wiseman score? Honestly, this is probably a bit of a rare standout in Wiseman's usual drama scoring. She so often writes heartbreaking themes for drama, which is why this score was such a breath of fresh air.

9. John Williams (5) - THE FURY (4), 'Main Title' (4)
Clip 9
How would you guess this as a John Williams score? More like how could you not! Those thunderous timpani strokes under the ominous string rhythm, brass triplets are both giveaways. Also, there's only so many composers in the modern era that would put a melody like that in the clarinet.

10. Elliot Goldenthal (3) - DEMOLITION MAN (3), 'Machine Waltz' (2)
Clip 10

How would you guess this as an Elliot Goldenthal score? Well, the recording has a modern sheen to it. There's a real playfulness with form in this piece - almost mocking whatever action is taking place to it. Goldenthal is a composer who often feels like he's looking down on the film he's scoring... he can make sure his music gives it the right manic energy, but you can't help but wondering whether he's making fun of it while helping it out. This waltz is so pompous, it must have either been written by Silvestri or Goldenthal, but the little flourishes along the way definitely make it a Goldenthal piece to my ears. The crisp percussion sounds, strangely funky feel, and the way the brass come in towards the cadence at the end of the piece all sound pretty typical of Goldenthal.

11. Georges Delerue (3) - THE LAST METRO / LA DERNIER METRO (2), 'Generique' (2)
Clip 11
My favourite Delerue theme. Now you know.

How would you guess this as a Georges Delerue score? Sound quality is a bit aged. Definitely not post-70s. Flutes and strings lead, oboe introduces the clip-- so you're looking for a composer who would use them. It has that lyrical romantic popular song sound of so many of Delerue's early scores (so too for Legrand, Jarre, Lai and others - it's a French 60s/70s thing). You can imagine lyrics rolling around on top of the theme. The chord progressions in the string harmony are part of Delerue's classic formula.

12. Dan Jones (0) - SHADOW OF THE VAMPIRE (0), 'The Lonely Voyage' (0)
Clip 12

The second of three very difficult scores to work out. I really recommend this score. I included it, as I figured someone would type 'waltz' into iTunes and track this one down (it's a variation on the 'Shipbuilding Waltz' from that score) that way. But I guess you have to have it in the the first place!

How would you guess this as a Dan Jones score? You probably don't! Jones isn't an especially well-known composer, but in both this score and MAX (an unreleased Ivor Novello winner), he does a fine waltz.

13. Miklos Rozsa (4) - PROVIDENCE (2), 'Twilight Waltz' or 'Crepuscul... Waltz' (2)
Clip 13

An obscure Rozsa score, but to my mind the most memorable waltz he wrote. A couple got it.

How would you guess this as a Miklos Rozsa score? Normally Rozsa's strings give him away. Unfortunately the strings are a bit suppressd in this clip to going through the motions of the waltz. Something must be giving it away as Rozsa though, because 2 people guessed it without getting the score right. The 'novel' touch is the Rachmaninov-like piano melody, which instantly makes it something from a film with a more nostalgic perspective. That little bridging statement that disappears under the fade-out at the end sounds very Rozsa-ish. I put this one in, because I kept recommending Providence to fans of Golden Age scoring, thinking a score for an Alan Renais film from the late 70s would have escaped the attention of most. But most who liked Rozsa had it, so I assumed it was more widespread than it apparently is.

14. Alexandre Desplat / Aaron Zigman (6) - MR MAGORIUM'S WONDER EMPORIUM (6), 'Mahoney's Debut' or 'Finale' (4)
Clip 14

I tried to put a few recent scores on the list. I figured the main title from MR MAGORIUM was bound to grab a few. Several guessed that this was by Trevor Jones.

How would you guess this as a Desplat score? The first statement of the theme takes place over a racing string figure that feels quite minimalistic - and that's one of the things that Desplat tends to do well, negotiate the path between minimalism and traditional romantic scoring. Also when it bursts out into a second full statement of the main waltz theme, listen to the flutes and horns - playing a repeated arpeggio. Desplat played the flute when young, and when it isn't the lead instrument in his music, it often plays a rhythmic or ostinato part.

15. Wojciech Kilar (3) - PORTRAIT OF A LADY (3), 'Phantasms of Love' (2)
Clip 15

I dropped a clue halfway into the game about how this was pretty much my favourite score from the 90s. Some attentive soul was watching.

How would you guess this as a Kilar score? Kilar has a very lush string sound - you feel you could drown in it. There's a lot of strings, and they overwhelm you - compare to the slightly distant feeling of 'The Empty Bed' from LUST, CAUTION above. Also, the romantic sound for full strings cuts down the number of composers it could be - it's more likely to be a European, I think. The way Kilar extends his waltz melody on the third iteration of the melody is something I've noticed him doing in his more florid music.

16. John Williams (3) - THE FURY (2), 'Death of the Carousel and End Title' (2)
Clip 16

I risked a second clip from the same score, firstly to reward those who remember a fine score, but secondly to see if anyone who got one wouldn't get the second. And there were a couple of those.
As one contestant guessed: " "
Three contestants guessed Christopher Young's HELLBOUND: HELLRAISER II here. I haven't heard it, but I guess for so many to bring it up, there must be similarities.

How would you guess this as a John Williams score? Well, hopefully because you already guessed clip 9! But if you didn't, the carousel waltz would be no giveaway in itself. What might betray Williams - though it led a couple to guess Goldsmith - is the way the rest of the orchestra joins in. The lower strings come in with a drone, and then the horns start in - something about those horns sounds very Williamsian to me, but that's probably only because I know THE FURY so well. Did he use horns like that in CLOSE ENCOUNTERS perhaps? This clip was also a bit short.

Bonus (aka IMPOSSIBLE): Vladimir Cosma (0) - L'HOMME DE SUEZ (0), 'Valse D'amour' (0)
Bonus

As one contestant guessed: 'Viennian waltz in a Viennian movie theatre'

So what's so Cosma-ish about this? Well, he can write great pastiche Late Romantic music - I don't know if that's quite enough to go on though! Like I said - I wouldn't have got this one, and I reviewed the CD once upon a time.



A final reflection:

I don't think track titles was the problem here for most. I think track titles separated the sheep from the goats, as they say, but the thing that kept most scores low here was simply the fact that people tended to know only three or four of the selections (from sixteen). Sixteen was probably too many as well. If I'm ever allowed to run a game again (next time will be 'Tango', I think), I'll make sure I choose a few more popular options. It's a tricky thing to judge though - I would have gotten 10 of those 16 without any trouble. (I would have struggled on the final Williams, for sure, the Dan Jones, and the Murray Gold, and I wouldn't have got the bonus clip.) Perhaps longer clips wouldn't be a bad idea either.

I hope, in any case, that it has introduced you to some interesting music, and reminded you of how central the waltz is in film music. This game particularly rewarded fans of 70s film music, and European film music. (Since the waltz is such a European tradition, no surprise on the latter there.)

Oh man! I thought I had a few more hours since one of your previous posts said '24 hours from now'. I did find out the Obsession track title (airport scene) thanks to youtube.
Will continue later...

Totally agree. Umebayashi's charmingly mystigue melodies and the cleverly hinted erotic tone in his music (like in this example too) is completely worthy of everyone's attention, imo.



From the melody; its nature and development of the harmony of this beautiful theme which - especially through the minor to major chord shift with the latter acting as a dominant chord to the 4th that follows, along with the rest of the musical phrase's development, is trademarked Zimmer; although i can see how the unusually delicate and fragile arrangements together with the small-scale instrumentation would most likely confuse those who aren’t extensively accustomed to his work in full.



Indeed. Plus, Desplat's dramatic writing is always austere but elegant, restrained and metered but irresistibly melodic and flowing. His choice of instrumentation and - of course, the arrangements give him away most of the times as well.



This is indeed a rare case for Wiseman, both melodically-wise but also especially in its grand and bold but simultaneously dark nature. A rather impressive work for sure that i'd personally recommend to everyone who haven't had the chance to experience its uniqueness yet.




That theme is so gorgeous and it instantly caught my attention as the brightest single composition amidst the good but not anything special bunch of the rest of the Magorium's score. So heartbreaking, so delicate, so Desplat;

You said 24 hours?

I didn't get my answers in you git!!


I got 21 correct!

Oh well, considering I've hardly played this game for the last Month or more I can only blame myself.

Cool clips Michael

I have deleted Tommy Boy's lower score (not sure how that happened!):

- Plindboe - 22 points
- BhelPuri - 21 points
[apparently] - Timmer - 21 points [/apparently]
- Bregt - 15 points
- Demetris - 12 points
- Falkirkbairn - 11 points
- Thor - 11 points
- Tommy Boy - 10 points
- Reza - 9 points
- AntiNeutrino - 8 points
- BobDH - 6 points
- Bregje - 4 points (and the award for most persistent contestant!)

Sweet. Bring the next one in!

Timmer!!!!!! How could you!

I'm not sure where I stand in this track title discussion...

On one hand I think it's very simple. It's a game. The more you know, the more points you get.
Often specific tracks are chosen for a GTS game, so then they are somehow recognizable. Or, as already said, they have a link with the theme. I don't understand why people do not play beacuse of the track title thing; you can also just guess composer and score if that's what you enjoy doing! Of course, you won't win the game, but does that really matter? (Perhaps it's easy for me to say though, losing by far is not as bad as losing with 1 point probably...). Something that also came to my mind -because in difficult games like these where I don't recognize any of the music, all I can do is try to guess the composer- is what would you think if I argued that asking for score titles is stupid too, because 'If I know the composer, I'd have to go through all of his scores to find the right one!' I am not being serious here of course, but my point is, the more you know, the more points you get. Unless you recognize the score at once, it goes from easy to difficult: composer, score, track title. You are free to decide how hard you want it and how much time you want to spend on it.

On the other hand, a game without tracktitles would be fine as well, because these games are difficult enough for me as they are! So I won't complain then. I'm wondering if it's more fair to give people with little time (or energy) the same chances to win and I'm still not sure... doesn't it work like that in any game that effort is rewarded? And you don't have to go through the entire score if you don't want to, you could also accept you don't know the answer. Just like I accept I don't even know the score title, hehe, hm... And again, no one puts just a track up, it's always something special.

I really don't know. This post may sound like I am leaning towards pro- track titles but I'm not sure yet. Without track titles would make it easier for sure.

This discussion also makes me wonder who is really playing to win? (This is not a rhetorical question.)

I must confess, while I don't play to win, I approach it as though it was a test of my intelligence/resourcefulness, and so work to figure them all out. If I ever did that, by default I'd win. But losing to the better player is fine by me - they know their stuff better than me, it's as simple as that. One reason I'd be dismayed to lose the tracktitles part is that it takes away some of the challenge for me.